for 16 February 2001. Updated every WEEKDAY.

Tim Cavanaugh
Special Guest Editor

Terry Colon
Art Director

Heather Havrilesky
Senior Editor

Joey Anuff
Publisher

Something About Mary

You skipped over Mary's various appearances in muffins and pastry in Europe and Mexico. Then again, I think Elvis and even Richard Millhouse Nixon have made such appearances in things containing flour, eggs, etc. I understand this would seem to undermine her cred although nobody's reported if Mary in the muffin tasted indeed better than, say, biting into the likeness of Nixon or did Elvis tastes like Burger King even if it was a Bran muffin, we may never know. These documents may lay somewhere deep in the Vatican and perhaps can be uncovered in the next Suck article "Holy Figures in Pastry."

Suckerpunch
<suckerpunch@mindspring.com>

Thanks, Suckerpunch. Our Lady of Perth Amboy is something like what you're talking about, and Our Lady of Robstown, TX, who appears under the carpet of a church, is of the same nature. But basically these Virgin Marys in pastries are a) mostly the stuff of urban legend, and b) a joke that has been told many times before. The problem with irreligious humor is that it can too easily become cute, and ultimately that's not a particularly interesting approach. If I do uncover any Vatican pastry documents I'll try and do a followup. But this article was kind of labor-intensive. At this point I think Mary and I need some time apart.

yr pal,

BarTel

Subject: My Mary beats up your Mary

Hey Bartel,

The 1917 Fatima apparition was nice, with its kids and miracles and everything, but here in Mexico, Jesus has been letting mom drive for the last 450 years. The Virgin of Guadalupe obtained an iron-clad grip on the country without ever having to channel Nostradamus. The Catholic Church's great advantage was its ability to use sincretism to absorb existing customs, instead of going through all the trouble of crushing them completely. This explains those Aztec dances you filmed in New Jersey, which are an illustrative example of Catholicism propagating and keeping alive the pagan customs it supposedly "replaced". What better marketing placement for Mary than to appear on a hill where an Aztec godess was already being revered? Sure, you get the occasional idol hidden behind the altar, but you also get 10 million pilgrims a year visiting the Basilica. I am something of a heathen nonbeliever, though, so my last real contact with the Virgin involved finding her image in a bag of Ruffles. And even that was just a promotional tie-in for a papal visit, and not a true apparition like the famed Subway Virgin (http://members.toast.net/woolrich/mexmary.htm). I'm going to burn for eternity, aren't I? If I had only kept that bag of chips...

Damned as always,

- Humberto
<hmoreira@subidea.com>

Our Lady of Guadalupe is really so huge that she's in a class all her own. If you want absolute definitive proof that Anglos will never really understand Latinos, you need look no further than the fact that most US citizens have never even heard of the Virgin of Guadalupe, never notice her image (ubiquitous anywhere Spanish is spoken in the New World), and probably don't even realize those little crowns Latinos put in the back windows of their cars are tributes to Maria. But make no mistake — my hat is off to Our Lady of Guadalupe, and I ain't about to fuck with her armies. (Some lefty pinkos do, you know. Take a look at the comic book The Myth of the Virgin of Guadalupe by Eduardo del Rio, a.k.a. RIUS, available in English and Spanish from American Atheist Press.)

La Guadalupana also illustrates the strange nationalism that tends to cluster around Marian apparitions. You're incorrect in identifying Fatima as my Mary. I've been called many things, but I'm no Portuguese. Although Irish ancestry may give me a claim on Our Lady of Knock, I'm 100 percent US Grade A, thus more likely to go for Our Lady of Scottsdale or Our Lady of Steubenville.

Finally, those videos didn't come from New Jersey. They were made right here in the city of Saint Francis, where people know a thing or two about not disrespecting single moms.

yr pal,

BarTel

Subject: Grandma, You're Scaring Me

Jesus. I had a devout, walk-to-church-every-day-in-a-blinding-snowstorm, pilgrimage-hopping grandmother who used to read stories about violent martyrdom (stonings, spearings, rendings, what have you) in lieu of traditional bedtime stories. One summer, at a parish picnic, after a particularly frenzied round of Bingo or Name That Pope or whatever, my grandmother noticed that her camera had been knocked from its perch on a lawn chair onto the ground. Of course, the lens was facing the sky--you see where this is going, I hope--but upon closer inspection, she ascertained that no damage had resulted from the fall.

Fast forward a week. Grandma forgets about the camera spill, and has the picnic film developed. Sure enough, when she gets the pictures back from the Fotomat, something disturbing comes to light. Sure, pictures of octogenarians throwing Lawn Jarts are pretty damned terrifying, when you think about it, but the desiccated flesh of sporting oldsters isn't what gave us all the Fear. No indeed. The scary picture, which must have been triggered by the camera's drop to the grass, was a blurred and indistinct shot of the sky. So far, nothing worth having nightmares over, to be sure. But, with the help of my grandmother's looney spirituality, a fuzzy sky became something far more compelling. G'ma insisted that somewhere in all that cloudy, shaky murk, hovered The Wearer of the Special Bathrobe, Her Holiness Herself, The Virgin Mary.

Efforts to convince her otherwise proved futile. (It did sort of look like there was an arm in there somewhere, but Hell, people always see shapes in the clouds ... and besides, the arm looked like it may have once been attached to an ape and not Jesus' mom.) Anyway, long story slightly less so, G'ma sends photo to a) The Vatican, b) The Star and c) Phil Donahue. A Donahue lackey wrote a brisk thank-you note for the snapshot, but neither the Pope nor the tabloid responded. This did not deter G'ma, who blew up the picture to poster size, and had it mounted (with Fun-Tak) to the wall of the guest room. Right over the bed where I slept whenever I visited her. Creepy. Thanks for the insomnia, babe.

poopdog

<From Plastic>

Your granny's apparition raises the truly perplexing question of Marian aesthetics — the way true believers see all this beauty and inspiration in the freaking scariest imagery ever conceived by human beings. Leaving aside all the especially bloody Jesus iconography (which I think is best, given that I have friends who keep the 3-D closeup photo of the before/after dying Jesus on their walls — and not for hipster ironic purposes), the stuff that is considered cute is even more terrifying. My collection of Our Lady of Bayside literature contains a series of paintings of little girls in Sunday dresses praying to Mary statues, and while I can't quite say why, I am positive this is the kind of image psychopaths see in their nightmares.

Not to keep ragging on Garry Wills, but this is a particular reason I can't take his Joe Catholic routine seriously. Because on the one hand you have this guy who draws his lessons in faith from frescoes that he admired in Tuscany, and on the other hand you have these multitudes of the truly faithful collecting Our Lady of Lourdes Viewmaster cards and Magic Attic dolls of the Infant of Prague. I'm not trying to be a snob here, or even a reverse snob. There's some kind of vast disconnect that I still don't quite grasp, even after writing 8,000 words on the topic.

yr pal,

BarTel

Excellent article, thank you.

As a Catholic schoolboy in the 50s, I well remember all that creepy Mariolatry. I could never see the attraction of it, but I guess she was not as scary as the rest of the pantheon.

In Australia, the Labor Party split along religious lines, and was out of power for 25 years. And when they finally get back...remember Christopher Boyce? Loved the Latin! Should be more of it a la West Wing's post hoc ergo propter hoc.

Paul
<eaglerock@interact.net.au>

You didn't see the attraction of it? My sister the teacher's pet was crowned May Queen one year, and believe me, we were damn proud!

My sense is that that stuff has died out in a big way, mostly because nuns were always the biggest Mary supporters, and Catholic schools are almost entirely staffed by lay people these days. But you can never count out the possibility of a Mary comeback. She's like Cher that way.

yr pal,

BarTel

Subject: Mary, Jewish mother of God

Dear Tim:

One of the worst plays ever produced on Broadway (SEX AND LONGING, if you must know) still manages to contain one good line: explaining why she sends her prayers to Mary rather than Jesus, a character explains that Mary is "like a good executive secretary...you can always reach her even if the boss is busy." Seriously weird, if well written and researched, piece. Who pushed your buttons?

Alan
<akornhis@optonline.net>

Your subject line raises an interesting question: How come Jewish people never call their daughters Mary? Given that there are two Marys in the New Testament, the name must have had some currency in the Holy Land, and should be available for ethnic reclamation. If I were a Jew I'd name my daughter Mary just to be a troublesome cuss.

That concept of the Madonna as a world-class administrator is more current than you probably think, and will most likely continue to catch on. Now that civilians increasingly get called on to assist with the mass, the ones who most often take part are the kind of super-efficient old ladies you'd expect to see as the secretary at your high school. And of course, everybody knows it takes a hard woman to raise a child.

Yr pal,

BarTel

First of all, a good story, Tim. Your description here on Plastic ("bringing you the new the mainstream media doesn't want you to hear") is spot on. This story, along with (for instance) the military coverage from Ambrose, provide the proof for your statement.

Just a few notes from the top of my head:

1. You left out Pope John Paul's greatest reason for believing in the intervention of Mary during his attempted assassination-- and the most convincing proof of her efficacy as a ballistic deterrent. Only a split second before his would-be assassin fired, John Paul was transfixed by a gleaming image of Mary on a young woman's shirt. He leaned down to look more closely just as Agca fired. Because of this the first two shots, aimed at the Pontiff's head, missed.

2. Although Medjugorje has inspired a number of followers, it has a quite vocal (and more credible) group of detractors and skeptics-- including the local church hierarchy. See for instance, this site, which was the first page I came up with in a Google search. The Church has a prime rule when dealing with supposed miracles or prophetic statements-- this is that such statements cannot contradict scripture. "By their fruits shall you know them." The Medjugorjian apparitions have been very loquacious, and provided much material for their own condemnation.

3. A more interesting question regarding Medjugorje might be whether they were coopted. Early apparitions seemed more in line with traditional Marian visitations. This is all off the top of my head, but if I remember right the visions were supposed to stop. They did, for a short time, but then resumed to certain, ahh, opportunistic receivers. At this point Medjugorje is quite a thriving industry, with, as your article mentions, franchises starting to pop up around the world. The local church hierarchy has been very explicit in condemning the Medjugorje events, but let's face it: the days when a Bishop could wipe out heresy with a few well-placed torches are over. (Which is at it should be. Auto-da-fe kicks only belong at Burning Man.)

Angst Dei

<From Plastic>

Thanks, Angst. These points are addressed in greater detail at Plastic, but basically there have been many cases over the years — including Fatima — where the local bishopric opposed a Marian apparition, only to change its tune as popular support and previously unseen benefits became apparent. And there are quite a few possible benefits involved at Medjugorje. Our Lady of Medjugorje's future is quite a bit brighter than that of her detractors.

yr pal,

BarTel

Subject: Something about James Cameron

M. d'Arcy,

A fine piece, marred only by the missing (or extra, depending on your point of view) " that makes Sir Paul McCartney a bad (though redeemable) link.

But I do have one question. You say early on that

Her personal clout is beyond the sublunary census technologies we use to measure that Bill Clinton is a beloved figure from American history or that "titanic" is the most widely known word on the planet.

OK, I'll bite: What's your source on the linguistic reach of "titanic"? I'm not picking nits here. I really want to know. Any and all details — bibliographic, journalistic, methodological, or theological — are welcome.

Thanks again for expanding so entertainingly on one of my favorite obsessions.

Yours in faith,

Mark
<mdurham@sendmail.com>

Thank you, Mark, and I assure you that the composer of Working Classical remains a dedicated Marian.

As for the Titanic reference, I believe that this actually predates James Cameron, and is more a function of folklore than of popular culture. But I have nothing to back up the claim, which I saw in a magazine many years ago and really used as a rhetorical flourish rather than a central fact. (I always think it's clear to everybody when Suck is stating actual facts and when we're just doing a ha-ha, but I guess it's not). It makes sense, though. The idea that "Jesus" or "Clinton" or "J.Lo" are tops is just wishful thinking, and every language has its own words for universal concepts like "cancer" and "malpractice." But I'm afraid you busted me. I can't back that one up. You just have to take it on faith.

yr pal,

BarTel

What the hell was that crap? 7 long pages of semi-coherent rambling about a bunch of semi-coherent religious visions? I read the whole damn thing, waiting for the POINT of the damn article. None found. Terry's drawings were, as usual, great, though.

Get suck back to where it's best; making fun of the stupid, or ranting (Polly does that best). I don't think this type of metahumor is successful, if, indeed, you were trying with today's suck to BE stupid for us to laugh at. You want religious material for suck? Here.

Kee-rist.

Paul Sonier
<PaulS@vjungle.net>

Paul,

Thanks for reading all seven pages. The point was that Mary won the Cold War.

yr pal,

BarTel

Hit & Run

Sucksters,

I read your column every day, and most days I laugh out loud. However, today's attack on Roman Catholicism as a "wacky" religion really ticked me off. Say what you want about age old tradition, but I think you've got some of your facts a bit backward. You said in your column "they will be raised in the one that believes Saint Isidore invented the Internet, the Virgin Mary ascended bodily into Heaven, and you eat pieces of Jesus every Sunday morning." and that's not quite accurate. If Saint Isidore were to be named as Patron Saint of the Internet it doesn't mean that Isidore created it, but rather is the Saint that you pray to when you need guidance concerning the internet. So basically, if you've got a story in the Slashdot submissions box, you'd pray to Isidore for help getting it accepted. So, don't go claiming stuff without actually researching what's going on.

Sincerely,

Tom Bridge
<tbridge@westlake.com>

Rest assured, Tom, we have done more research on the old RCC than any normal person would dare undertake. Our inflated claims for St. Isidore were just a way of sorta, you know ticklin' ribs, as it were. In any event, our purpose wasn't to bury John Paul II but to praise L. Ron Hubbard.

Sucksters

Now that's funny. I'm impressed. I'll even assume that the Bacon painting reference was a weird cross-timing in-joke. But you left out John Webster...who, on the evidence, would be the executive producer of a "lives of the rich and famous" soap opera. (BTW, whatever you do, avoid the current production of The White Devil, which again proves that "Australian acting" is an oxymoron.)

Still, what would Shakespeare be doing? It's not as though we lack a model for a brilliantly successful artist who is both innovative and a financial success: Picasso and, earlier, Reubens come to mind...the latter is a prime example, as he was a notoriously astute businessman and organizer even as he was worshipped for his artistic innovation in his own time. Hell, even Leonardo and Michelangelo died old, lauded, and very wealthy. But for the written word, organization and creativity and success rarely come in the same package...especially on the stage.

Inevitably, the only working models do seem to be movies: Woody Allen or Ingmar Bergman or Orson Wells. (Below this level, you can pull out your own B list of highly successful producer/directors who also wrote their screenplays...I just don't want to get into any of those "is George Lucas a sentient lifeform?" discussions.) Only cinema seems to allow the full use of both organizational and creative talents to reach a wide audience. Sure, there are still small innovative theater groups that focus on a single man's work (the Ontological-Hysterical Theater is as fine as ever, and Chekov and Brecht remain associated with their original producers), but today, the truth is that you ask "what's new on the Rialto?" at the Rialto Cinemax. Alas, probably for the wrong reasons, the Hollywood hacks are probably right.

Alan Kornheiser
<akornhis@optonline.net>

Thanks, Alan. The problem isn't really that old Swanny wouldn't be writing movie scripts, but that nobody ever specifies what kind of scripts he'd be writing. Hipped-up Gen Y pastiches of old television shows? Meet-cute romantic comedies where two A-minus stars do everything they can not to fall in love? Action-heavy (though oddly slow-moving) Jerry Bruckheimer vehicles where second banana teams establish character by lip-syncing to super hits of the sixties? Upscale martial arts pictures where people fly around on invisible strings?

We still believe that if Shakespeare were alive today he'd be a hack entertainment beat reporter writing copy like "Crouching Tiger, Hidden Oscar!" or "Save the Last Dance for Julia Stiles!" or "If Milton were living at this hour... he'd be writing movie scripts!"

Sucksters

Dear Suck People,

First of all, I would like to assure Walt that there are more people that have been to Camp Wood than just Walt. Being from Oklahoma, I drift down to Texas occasionally and have to suffer through the occasion of talking to folks like Walt who say things like "I speak as probably your only reader who has been to Camp Wood." All this while pointing out *your* errors.

As far as your reference to Governor Keating in your Hit and Run thing today, I would like to say the following. Our premier newspaper , The Daily Oklahoman, reported on Saturday, February 3, that President Bush not only has called Governor Keating to apologize that his people leaked, but he has also written a note. President Bush also hugged Frank at the inaugural parade. And he basically cleared up the thing about not choosing Governor Keating to be his running mate or his attorney general. And it wasn't because of the Governor and his wife accepting around $250,00 in gifts. So we're all a lot happier now, and glad that they've both made up.

As far as your theme song thing goes, this is so weird because just last week I ran into my brother in law at my mother's house (he's a college professor) and probably because my brother in law has always intimidated me on some level, (unintentionally and besides he can't help it if he's smarter than I am) I was a little intimidated. Luckily, half way through our conversation, he mentioned to me that he used to watch The Dukes of Hazzard and used to know the words but he'd forgotten them and asked if I knew them. I just stood there for a few moments and then I said I didn't, and now I'm not really intimidated by him at all any more.

I've yet to see an episode of The Dukes of Hazzard but I've got the metal lunchbox.

Anyway, thanks!!

Ellen Smith
<ruthannemiller@hotmail.com>

Ellen,

It took us an hour to figure out what your reference to Camp Wood was about. Like maybe it was a reference to "Morning Wood" or something — possibly "Camp Wood" is what you get when a bunch of regular guys on a hunting trip all wake up in their tent, or something like that.

We know the feeling of relief you can get on those rare occasions that you find some piece of TV trivia is not taking up space in your brain. But in the case of Waylon Jennings's top-notch tribute to the "good ol' boys, never meanin' no harm" who are "fightin' the system like two modern-day Robin Hoods," we suggest you not only listen to it but memorize it word-for-word.

Sucksters

If you think Scientology is just a wacky but harmless cult, try reading this Pulitzer Prize winning series from the St. Petersburg Times.

I'm not aware that they generally give Pulitzers to torch-wielding bigots.

If anything, it's the Scientology cult itself which is like the Catholic Church doing the Crusades. The difference is that they're doing it today. They regularly harass writers critical of them, including framing Paulette Cooper, the author of The Scandal of Scientology with a forged bomb threat. (Cooper won the Conscience in Media Award for her courage in exposing these creeps.)

That's not even to mention terrorism against judges who don't decide their way in court when they rev up their multi-million dollar litigation machine. They spend $20 million a year just suing people who speak out against them.

The Catholics have been guilty of a lot over the centuries, but they are certainly not currently anywhere near the level of viciousness of this cult. You can generally quote the King James Version of the Bible on the net without being sued and having your home raided and ransacked.

muldrake

From Plastic

Well duh, Muldrake, if we didn't think the Scientologists could hurt us do you really think we'd be sucking up to them in our column? We shudder to think what kind of files the Hubbards have been keeping on us just for that time we wrote "Mimi Rodgers should be saved by Oscar for her heaven-sent performance in The Rapture!"

Just to reiterate, among the religions that regularly receive respectful, non-Pulitzer-winning media coverage (and what does God care for your Pulitzers anyway?), we find the following beliefs:

St. Christina the Astonishing jumped out of her coffin and floated up to the ceiling to escape the stench of human flesh, while St. Rose of Lima is holy because she rubbed pepper on her face and lime on her hands after somebody complimented her on her beauty.

Penis mutilation is an essential part of holiness, and God wants His Chosen People to steal land from the Arabs.

If you don't behave in a way prescribed by your charismatic, heavenly, orange-robed leader, you may come back in your next life as a cockroach. (Depending on where you live, this may or may not be preceded by a visit to the underworld kingdom of the Jade Emperor, who will serve you a special tea of forgetfulness).

Sucksters

Sorry Sucksters. When the Roman Catholic church returns to locking people up and/or killing them for apostasy, then you can start comparing criticism of Scientology to criticism of Catholicism.

I can only imagine that the person who wrote this is unaware of the existence of the Rehabilitation Project Force, Scientology's re-education prison camp.

I can only imagine that the person who wrote this is unaware of the death of Lisa McPherson, a Scientologist who having hinted at wanting to leave the organization, was kept in isolation for 17 days and died of severe dehydration and neglect while Scientologists passed by closer hospitals to drive her to an ER with a Scientologist doctor on staff.

I can only imagine that the person who wrote this is unaware that church policy dictates that those who criticize Scientology shall be intimidated, "shuddered into silence," investigated, and may be tricked, lied to and utterly destroyed without fear of punishment.

I can only imagine that the person who wrote this is unaware that church doctrine for this notoriously litigious organization states quite frankly that the point of the lawsuit is not to win, but to harrass.

Think I'm exaggerating? Think again.

Take a look at both sides and come to your own conclusions.

Scientology's official web site

Xenu.net, the most comprehensive collection of documents on the Church of Scientology.

colette

Continued, with many supporting URLs, at Plastic

We support any and all attacks on Scientology, Colette. But again, let's keep in mind just where some of these other Great Faiths fit in on the Cult-O-Meter. Within living memory, the Catholic Church has enthusiastically supported fascist regimes in Europe and South America and cultish dictatorships in Africa, pestered the United States to get involved in the Vietnam war, and avoided actually making any objection to the Holocaust. Every pathetic, unsustainable Bantustan that the Jewish State "gives" to the Palestinians has been seeded with settlements populated by Uzi-packing millennialist shitheads. On the Subcontinent, peaceful Hindus and pious Muslims routinely hijack buses, demanding that all males pull down their pants for circumcision-checks and, depending on the results, possible roadside executions. And so on. The crimes of the Scientologists pale by comparison.

PS: Love the Scientologists or hate 'em, you can continue the Holy War at Plastic.

Sucksters